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[Music]

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welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast

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from Australia for science and reason

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[Music]

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yes it's the skeptic zone podcast

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episode number 507 for the 8th of July

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2018 Richard Saunders here with you from

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Sydney Australia haven't been in the

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country for about a month nice to be

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home again but a bit of a jet lag going

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to catch up with me pretty soon I'm sure

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but never mind will will struggle on

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will struggle on it's nice to see the

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skeptics own cats again Henrietta and

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Maud who look at me and said yeah yeah

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where's the food and it's nice to be

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back to a little taste of winter here in

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Sydney Australia coming up on this

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week's show diet sceptic the diet

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sceptic Mandee Lee Noble will be looking

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at a very unusual therapy emotional

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freedom techniques or tapping where

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people tap tap tap tap tap on various

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parts of your body for various health

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reasons or that's the claim anyway

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tapping for health emotional freedom

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techniques coming up at the top of the

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show with Mandy Lee Noble following that

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what a treat

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at Auckland Zoo only about three days

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ago with dr. eugenie Scott now a

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longtime listeners to the show certainly

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know of dr. eugenie Scott we've had many

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adventures together or six months ago we

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went to the big trees National Park in

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California well a couple of days ago we

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were at Auckland Zoo and trips to the

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zoo are always fun I enjoy trips to the

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zoo but a trip to the zoo with someone

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of the stature and the knowledge of dr.

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eugenie Scott when it comes to

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evolutionary matters is quite something

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so you could be a fly on the wall you're

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a fly on my shoulder or something like

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that as dr. eugenie Scott and I wander

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around Auckland Zoo and see what there

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is to see then to wrap up the show

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a story a short story by our friend dr.

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Ken Harvey and his continuing quest to

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keep the government accountable the

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regulation the regulatory bodies

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accountable when it comes to matters of

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health care and health claims and he's

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going to be looking at a product called

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ease our cold does it easy cold we'll

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find out now stay tuned at the end of

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the show where you will have the chance

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to beat odds of eight million six

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hundred and forty thousand to one

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curious stay tuned but now it's time for

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me to run downstairs have an extra-large

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cup of coffee to keep myself going for a

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little while longer before the before

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the jet lag takes over and some lovely

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Vegemite toast I have missed my Vegemite

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over the past month well I do that I

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hope you enjoy the skeptic zone

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that looks good enough to eat

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or does it here's the diet skeptic man

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daily Nobile hello skeptics and

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listeners mandelino ball here dietitian

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and skeptic reporting from Brisbane this

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week on the diet skeptic report I will

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be discussing psychological acupuncture

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the counseling therapy known as

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emotional freedom techniques often

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abbreviated to EFT or more commonly

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described as tapping emotional freedom

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techniques were developed from elements

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of exposure therapy cognitive or thought

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based therapy and mindfulness mixed in

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with acupuncture neuro linguistic

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programming and energy medicine as a

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dietitian what drew me into taking a

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deep dive into the evidence for

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emotional freedom techniques is its

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recent application in weight loss

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programs there are several credentialed

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health providers in Australia offering

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EFT to address food cravings to achieve

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weight loss furthermore the dietitians

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Association of Australia is currently

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promoting training in emotional freedom

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techniques under its Centre for advanced

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learning initiative emotional freedom

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techniques is a self administered

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therapy we tap on acupuncture points

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with two fingers on the head and upper

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body in a given sequence while repeating

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prescribed statements relevant to the

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issue you are focusing on improving if

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tea is an accessible easy self

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administered therapy there are many

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instructional videos on the internet

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which fully demonstrate the process

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tapping is often promoted by its

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proponents as a bit weird but

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evidence-based in this report of the

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diet skeptic I will look at the validity

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of the studies that have tested EFT as a

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treatment for food cravings and measured

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the effect on weight loss

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I have also called on a special guest to

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comment on the scientific plausibility

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of psychological acupuncture firstly -

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the evidence for reduction in food

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cravings and weight loss Australian and

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Bondi University associate professor and

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the program director of masters of

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psychology dr. Peter Stapleton is

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described as a leader of worldwide

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research into psychological trials into

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new therapies in the area of obesity and

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weight management focused on clinical

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EFT I found three trials for food

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cravings that also managed weight loss

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co-authored by dr. Stapleton but firstly

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before we look at the outcomes of these

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trials it must be said that EFT includes

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other elements of evidence-based

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treatments and that none of these

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particular trials tests for whether it

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is those elements as opposed to the

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tapping then has produced the results

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also each of these three trials relied

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on self-reported data in the case of

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rating outcomes around food cravings

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although validated tools may have been

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used these are still subjective measures

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finally the research papers on EFT have

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come from a very small pool of

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researchers many of whom are authors on

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multiple papers and some of whom have

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significant commercial interests in EFT

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starting with the most recent of these

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three trials the trial reported

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significant improvements for body weight

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depression symptoms and a psychological

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measure for the influence of available

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food at twelve

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months the paper was published in the

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journal Explorer in 2018

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David Gorski of science-based medicine

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has described the journal Explorer as a

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sham masquerading as a real scientific

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journal which publishes truly ridiculous

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studies the trial had no control group

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and despite the fact that participants

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had to pay around 250 US dollars to be

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included in the trial it still suffered

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a 25% loss to follow up the losses to

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follow up were merely excluded from the

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data and no investigation into whether

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losses were around and were connected to

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a lack of success in treatment was ever

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done the second study was a

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non-inferiority study comparing

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cognitive behavioral therapy a gold

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standard for eating disorders with EFT

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measuring food cravings and weight loss

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as an outcome this studies potentially

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has a better study design than the

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previous study which may explain why it

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was published in the Journal of Applied

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Psychology at 12 months both groups

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demonstrated a clinically meaningful

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reduction in food cravings and it was

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concluded that EFT was not inferior to

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CBT however there was no significant

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reduction in weight in either group the

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third study showed significant

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improvements occurring in weight and

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subjective measures for food cravings at

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12 months however this study was

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published in the Journal of energy

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psychology in 2012 it also had no

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control group and over 50% lost to

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follow-up participants who continued

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including in trials are possibly more

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likely to be perceived benefit than

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those who are lost to follow-up and this

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may represent a bias in the results so

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to sum up the evidence for EFT is a

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treatment for improvements in food

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cravings and weight loss the trials are

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mostly published in low-quality journals

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and mostly did not have control groups

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or a study design that could demonstrate

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where the tapping was responsible for

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the measured effect no trials were

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longer than 12 months which given the

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current evidence on weight loss which is

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that weight loss is maximal at 6 to 12

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months and regardless of the degree of

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initial weight loss most weight is

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regained within a two-year period it

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could not be concluded that any of the

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current trials provide evidence of

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long-term weight loss

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there's also mirth mentioning that

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weight regain is driven by physiological

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factors as opposed to specific food

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cravings

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as for the plausibility of energy

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psychology I thought I'd ask someone who

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is an expert in things energy-related my

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husband dr. Chris noble research

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physicist Chris is there any evidence

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for subtle energy pathways such as

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meridians and acupoints in the body no

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these subtle energies are poorly defined

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and are mostly assumed to be outside of

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our current understanding of physics

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Chris do you know what this energy would

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be well as far as I can work out the

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working hypothesis in energy psychology

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is that tapping produces electrical

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signals at acupressure points via the

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pizza electric effect and these signals

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then travel to other organs in the body

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such as the amygdala through collagen a

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semiconductor in connective tissue but

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isn't there collagen throughout our

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bodies yes and the idea has very little

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prior plausibility but it is easily

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testable and there seems to be very

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little effort to test some of these

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basic principles despite an entire

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journal devoted to energy psychology so

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Chris other researchers have tested EFT

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using functional magnetic resonance

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imaging could a functional magnetic

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resonance imaging test that is used to

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demonstrate brain activity in response

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to stimuli be used as a credible test

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EFT know with no plausible mechanism for

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energy psychology it would not be

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credible to use fMRI results there's

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evidence for EFT it sounds great in

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media releases and gives an aura of

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science but before you use it to try to

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prove something like EFT you really need

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to be exactly clear about what you were

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trying to measure well thank you Chris

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for clearing up those points so I think

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listeners we would all do well to heat

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the disclaimer and dr. Peter Stapleton's

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website this material is for your

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general knowledge only and it is not a

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substitute for traditional medical

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attention counseling therapy or advice

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from a qualified health care

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professional and if you wish to embark

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on your own tapping journey you will

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find EFT is promoted as the universal

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healing aid a personal healing tool that

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can be applied to improve any human

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condition both physical and emotional

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EFT is promoted for all the following

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physical conditions allergies migraines

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pain management chronic fatigue syndrome

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multiple chemical sensitivities

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hypertension fibromyalgia cancer

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muscular dystrophy parkinson's disease

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cystic fibrosis and multiple sclerosis

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as well as other challenges such as

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behavioral issues in children

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relationship issues anger management

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stress management depression anxiety

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00:14:16,519 --> 00:14:12,749
insomnia PTSD addictions sexual abuse

281
00:14:19,549 --> 00:14:16,529
and phobias EFT is also claimed to

282
00:14:24,049 --> 00:14:19,559
promote life abundance weight loss and

283
00:14:27,469 --> 00:14:24,059
career goals and finally some certified

284
00:14:31,999 --> 00:14:27,479
EFT universe practitioners provide

285
00:14:34,849 --> 00:14:32,009
additional EFT services such as matrix

286
00:14:39,979 --> 00:14:34,859
reimprinting for resolving issues in

287
00:14:42,499 --> 00:14:39,989
one's past or even quantum eft services

288
00:14:46,140 --> 00:14:42,509
for those with unresolved issues

289
00:14:49,050 --> 00:14:46,150
stemming from a past life

290
00:14:52,769 --> 00:14:49,060
so until next time skeptic listeners

291
00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:52,779
this has been mandala noble with special

292
00:15:09,930 --> 00:14:56,410
guest dr. Chris Noble signing off for

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the diet skeptic report hi I'm Darren

294
00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:11,380
McKee one of the hosts of the reality

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00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:13,450
check each week my co-host and I explore

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00:15:17,130 --> 00:15:15,370
a range of controversies and curiosities

297
00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:17,140
using science and critical thinking you

298
00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:18,610
can find us on itunes your favorite

299
00:15:22,170 --> 00:15:20,650
podcasting platform and on facebook by

300
00:15:23,850 --> 00:15:22,180
searching for the reality check or by

301
00:15:26,010 --> 00:15:23,860
following us on twitter at TRC

302
00:15:27,390 --> 00:15:26,020
underscore podcast until then keep an

303
00:15:40,250 --> 00:15:27,400
open mind but not so open your brain

304
00:15:43,470 --> 00:15:40,260
falls out you may well remember that

305
00:15:46,530 --> 00:15:43,480
some months ago I accompanied Jimmy

306
00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:46,540
Scott as we went to the big trees in

307
00:15:51,390 --> 00:15:48,970
California but the day Jeannie and I are

308
00:15:53,610 --> 00:15:51,400
at the Oakland Zoo and Jeannie this what

309
00:15:56,930 --> 00:15:53,620
paper thing you have in front of you is

310
00:15:59,610 --> 00:15:56,940
a map and we were just discussing how to

311
00:16:01,050 --> 00:15:59,620
our disbelief there's a lot of the

312
00:16:06,630 --> 00:16:01,060
younger generation who aren't sure how

313
00:16:09,210 --> 00:16:06,640
to use maps we're a couple of crabby old

314
00:16:11,310 --> 00:16:09,220
yeah we certainly are not crabby old

315
00:16:14,550 --> 00:16:11,320
people Richard but we know how to use up

316
00:16:15,930 --> 00:16:14,560
a map but Richard keeps trying to you

317
00:16:17,699 --> 00:16:15,940
know keeps taking his thumb and

318
00:16:19,410 --> 00:16:17,709
forefinger and trying to expand it but

319
00:16:21,210 --> 00:16:19,420
it's not gonna work that way you know

320
00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:21,220
and I tried talking to it I said take us

321
00:16:27,449 --> 00:16:23,410
to the lines that are didn't answer this

322
00:16:29,910 --> 00:16:27,459
is a map is a two-dimensional shape of

323
00:16:32,100 --> 00:16:29,920
the product upon which our lit written

324
00:16:35,970 --> 00:16:32,110
little lines and in this case of the map

325
00:16:38,130 --> 00:16:35,980
of the zoo lovely pictures of enclosures

326
00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:38,140
with little pictures of animals and this

327
00:16:40,690 --> 00:16:39,250
is going to be a fun day

328
00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:40,700
it's a

329
00:16:45,670 --> 00:16:43,850
brilliant warm sunny day here in Oakland

330
00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:45,680
we've just walked into the zoo this

331
00:16:50,020 --> 00:16:48,170
flamingos right in front of us as lots

332
00:16:51,100 --> 00:16:50,030
of children lots of children here today

333
00:16:52,780 --> 00:16:51,110
which is a good sign

334
00:16:54,550 --> 00:16:52,790
absolutely and we're just going to

335
00:16:59,190 --> 00:16:54,560
wander around and see what interesting

336
00:17:02,340 --> 00:16:59,200
things we can discover at Oakland Zoo

337
00:17:05,620 --> 00:17:02,350
[Music]

338
00:17:07,120 --> 00:17:05,630
we've just come to the the fence here

339
00:17:10,270 --> 00:17:07,130
the little enclosure the big enclosure

340
00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:10,280
of a tortoise and it's in the distance

341
00:17:13,630 --> 00:17:11,570
there and it looked like a clump of

342
00:17:16,930 --> 00:17:13,640
rocks but you're just about to say

343
00:17:20,290 --> 00:17:16,940
something about their history yeah

344
00:17:23,110 --> 00:17:20,300
galapagos tortoises have a definite role

345
00:17:26,939 --> 00:17:23,120
to play in inspiring Charles Darwin's

346
00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:26,949
idea about natural selection

347
00:17:32,830 --> 00:17:29,570
Darwin was having lunch or having dinner

348
00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:32,840
with some residents of the Galapagos

349
00:17:38,110 --> 00:17:35,570
Islands some European residents and one

350
00:17:40,510 --> 00:17:38,120
of them one of the residents casually

351
00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:40,520
mentioned oh you know so-and-so is able

352
00:17:46,450 --> 00:17:44,450
to tell you what Island a turtle comes

353
00:17:49,780 --> 00:17:46,460
from just by the shape of its shell

354
00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:49,790
huh and of course one of the things that

355
00:17:55,570 --> 00:17:53,210
that triggered Darwin's idea about the

356
00:17:57,240 --> 00:17:55,580
immutability of species as they called

357
00:18:01,300 --> 00:17:57,250
it back again had the idea of evolution

358
00:18:04,150 --> 00:18:01,310
and of course the idea that different

359
00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:04,160
islands would would be petri dishes for

360
00:18:10,780 --> 00:18:08,410
the adaptation of very similar organisms

361
00:18:12,010 --> 00:18:10,790
but different because of their

362
00:18:13,750 --> 00:18:12,020
adaptation for the particular

363
00:18:15,970 --> 00:18:13,760
environment is one of the ideas that

364
00:18:18,370 --> 00:18:15,980
stimulated Darwinian natural selection

365
00:18:20,260 --> 00:18:18,380
if I remember the story correctly I

366
00:18:23,950 --> 00:18:20,270
think it had to do with the the ridge

367
00:18:25,660 --> 00:18:23,960
directly behind the the neck I think I

368
00:18:27,370 --> 00:18:25,670
remember reading that I was saying that

369
00:18:28,540 --> 00:18:27,380
that he could tell because the ridges

370
00:18:30,460 --> 00:18:28,550
were slightly different but you're right

371
00:18:32,620 --> 00:18:30,470
was basically the shape of the the shell

372
00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:32,630
he was looking at yeah there's details

373
00:18:37,660 --> 00:18:35,450
of course the other and of course Darwin

374
00:18:40,930 --> 00:18:37,670
didn't really twig to this whole idea

375
00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:40,940
until he got back to England and started

376
00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:43,010
looking over his notes and looking over

377
00:18:48,010 --> 00:18:46,250
the collections Darwin of course was an

378
00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:48,020
excellent geologist but he really was

379
00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:49,970
not an expert on either reptiles or

380
00:18:52,770 --> 00:18:51,770
birds or any of the other animals that

381
00:18:55,780 --> 00:18:52,780
he sent back and

382
00:18:59,440 --> 00:18:55,790
large quantities from his his voyage on

383
00:19:05,920 --> 00:18:59,450
the Beagle and it really was the

384
00:19:08,650 --> 00:19:05,930
mockingbirds that that helped secure

385
00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:08,660
this idea that animals on different

386
00:19:12,130 --> 00:19:10,490
islands would be adapted to slightly

387
00:19:14,110 --> 00:19:12,140
different environments even though they

388
00:19:17,860 --> 00:19:14,120
all were very similar yeah so from that

389
00:19:19,810 --> 00:19:17,870
it was pretty easy to come up with a

390
00:19:22,570 --> 00:19:19,820
hypothesis that well maybe all of these

391
00:19:24,790 --> 00:19:22,580
animals had a common ancestor and then

392
00:19:27,430 --> 00:19:24,800
diversified as they were separated on

393
00:19:29,260 --> 00:19:27,440
these different islands to adapt to the

394
00:19:32,140 --> 00:19:29,270
different environments of those islands

395
00:19:34,090 --> 00:19:32,150
and this has taught us the vows over

396
00:19:36,010 --> 00:19:34,100
there he sees these heads now come up

397
00:19:38,620 --> 00:19:36,020
and we can see a little bit of movement

398
00:19:40,120 --> 00:19:38,630
but it's he's not exactly leaping over

399
00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:40,130
the place but you wouldn't expect a

400
00:19:50,770 --> 00:19:43,010
giant tortoise to do that for a tortoise

401
00:19:52,390 --> 00:19:50,780
that is a great deal of activity this is

402
00:19:55,530 --> 00:19:52,400
exciting take a photograph there's

403
00:20:01,180 --> 00:19:55,540
another one look we're just walking over

404
00:20:02,250 --> 00:20:01,190
down the fence line here and we can see

405
00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:02,260
another one

406
00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:06,770
yeah it's about 15 meters away just sort

407
00:20:13,890 --> 00:20:08,330
of sitting under the shade of the trees

408
00:20:16,120 --> 00:20:13,900
having a good day so - it's exciting -

409
00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:16,130
well there could be even more because

410
00:20:22,180 --> 00:20:19,010
the enclosure they have for the the

411
00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:22,190
tortoise is very big in fact please do

412
00:20:26,100 --> 00:20:24,410
not feed or touch the tortoise is a good

413
00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:26,110
advice we won't do that

414
00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:28,490
tortoises are really hard to get to

415
00:20:32,380 --> 00:20:30,770
breed in captivity I noticed they have

416
00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:32,390
two here I have no idea if it's a male

417
00:20:35,650 --> 00:20:34,010
and a female I have no idea if they are

418
00:20:37,260 --> 00:20:35,660
attempting to breed them or whatever I'm

419
00:20:39,460 --> 00:20:37,270
sure they would be absolutely

420
00:20:41,740 --> 00:20:39,470
outstandingly delighted if they did

421
00:20:43,150 --> 00:20:41,750
breathe but it's very difficult to get

422
00:20:44,770 --> 00:20:43,160
them breed to breed in captivity

423
00:20:48,610 --> 00:20:44,780
other than Olli yeah which is one of the

424
00:20:52,120 --> 00:20:48,620
reasons why you know Galapagos Tortoises

425
00:20:53,850 --> 00:20:52,130
and subspecies that belonged to the you

426
00:20:57,540 --> 00:20:53,860
know different groups there are

427
00:21:00,040 --> 00:20:57,550
eventually going extinct unfortunately

428
00:21:02,140 --> 00:21:00,050
now we're walking around I think I can

429
00:21:04,420 --> 00:21:02,150
see another one around this corner yes

430
00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:04,430
yes oh that's and it's that somewhat

431
00:21:07,820 --> 00:21:06,090
closer - we can

432
00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:07,830
walk around the enclosure sort of go

433
00:21:13,039 --> 00:21:10,250
bleed one into the other into the other

434
00:21:15,649 --> 00:21:13,049
lots of room and space fun that's very

435
00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:15,659
nice to see he's a little pond oh that's

436
00:21:19,090 --> 00:21:17,490
nice that's a reasonably close-up view

437
00:21:40,399 --> 00:21:19,100
now we're getting of this tortoise

438
00:21:45,830 --> 00:21:40,409
munching the grass walking along here

439
00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:45,840
looking across the chasm and just on the

440
00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:47,610
other side we've got three ring-tailed

441
00:21:58,909 --> 00:21:55,610
strolling along ignoring all the

442
00:22:01,880 --> 00:21:58,919
visitors ring-tailed lemurs something

443
00:22:08,180 --> 00:22:01,890
wonderful a lemur is a squirrel designed

444
00:22:10,909 --> 00:22:08,190
in Paris four of the mountain now they

445
00:22:17,990 --> 00:22:10,919
are really so charming yeah really

446
00:22:20,120 --> 00:22:18,000
beautiful animals prosimians oh casually

447
00:22:22,820 --> 00:22:20,130
you can think of three major groups of

448
00:22:25,100 --> 00:22:22,830
primates the prosimians the monkeys the

449
00:22:26,659 --> 00:22:25,110
apes and the humans and the monkeys apes

450
00:22:29,450 --> 00:22:26,669
and humans are much more closely related

451
00:22:31,580 --> 00:22:29,460
to each other than they are to groups

452
00:22:34,130 --> 00:22:31,590
like the prosimians to which the lemurs

453
00:22:38,539 --> 00:22:34,140
belong lemurs and Pato is a number of

454
00:22:42,139 --> 00:22:38,549
other African and Asian forms they're

455
00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:42,149
two separate the monkey monkey ape human

456
00:22:47,870 --> 00:22:45,090
group and the prosimian group are really

457
00:22:50,899 --> 00:22:47,880
two separate branches of the very large

458
00:22:53,860 --> 00:22:50,909
primate tree they're often considered

459
00:22:56,779 --> 00:22:53,870
quote more primitive quote than the

460
00:23:00,680 --> 00:22:56,789
anthropoid or a monkey a human group but

461
00:23:03,740 --> 00:23:00,690
as my old as my old professor James

462
00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:03,750
Gavin used to say primitive can you hang

463
00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:07,770
by your feet that's an odd term

464
00:23:11,330 --> 00:23:09,570
primitive I've heard it before but III

465
00:23:12,860 --> 00:23:11,340
know even Richard Dawkins writes about

466
00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:12,870
the terms

467
00:23:20,270 --> 00:23:17,490
it's it's so value Laden yeah it is

468
00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:20,280
absolutely and the point is if a group

469
00:23:23,930 --> 00:23:22,170
of animals are a particular animal is

470
00:23:25,940 --> 00:23:23,940
successful and is still here and is

471
00:23:29,630 --> 00:23:25,950
breeding and is fine how can that be

472
00:23:31,850 --> 00:23:29,640
regarded as primitive well in that

473
00:23:35,860 --> 00:23:31,860
respect lemurs are very good at being

474
00:23:37,910 --> 00:23:35,870
lemurs or they wouldn't be here I mean

475
00:23:39,950 --> 00:23:37,920
there are a lot of animals that are

476
00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:39,960
being selected out because they can't

477
00:23:45,890 --> 00:23:42,690
survive in the Anthropocene or the human

478
00:23:48,049 --> 00:23:45,900
era in which we find ourselves but you

479
00:23:49,460 --> 00:23:48,059
know and and unfortunately many primate

480
00:23:51,860 --> 00:23:49,470
groups are going to be part of that

481
00:23:54,430 --> 00:23:51,870
extinction event possibly even lemurs

482
00:23:57,710 --> 00:23:54,440
lemurs are like these ringtails

483
00:24:00,740 --> 00:23:57,720
they're restricted to a very narrow

484
00:24:06,220 --> 00:24:00,750
geographic area on the planet back in

485
00:24:08,210 --> 00:24:06,230
the Pliocene and earlier biosea

486
00:24:09,950 --> 00:24:08,220
Oligocene they were much more broadly

487
00:24:11,990 --> 00:24:09,960
spread but now you just find them on

488
00:24:14,180 --> 00:24:12,000
madagascar and now with more

489
00:24:17,169 --> 00:24:14,190
environmental destruction in madagascar

490
00:24:19,669 --> 00:24:17,179
the habitats for lemurs and other

491
00:24:22,370 --> 00:24:19,679
persimmon ringtails and other prosimians

492
00:24:24,140 --> 00:24:22,380
on madagascar is becoming reduced and

493
00:24:26,299 --> 00:24:24,150
you know if you don't have a Baudette

494
00:24:27,740 --> 00:24:26,309
you don't survive yeah well I'm pleased

495
00:24:30,380 --> 00:24:27,750
to say the habitats they've provided

496
00:24:32,299 --> 00:24:30,390
them here is wonderful yeah I mean is

497
00:24:34,610 --> 00:24:32,309
it's as far removed as it from the old

498
00:24:36,410 --> 00:24:34,620
idea of you know walking along and

499
00:24:38,630 --> 00:24:36,420
seeing animals in cages as you can get

500
00:24:42,290 --> 00:24:38,640
they've got their own hillside trees

501
00:24:44,299 --> 00:24:42,300
environment shade it's it's a cage

502
00:24:47,210 --> 00:24:44,309
nevertheless but it's quite a nice one

503
00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:47,220
yeah I think these animals can live

504
00:24:51,980 --> 00:24:50,490
pretty contented in a very nice

505
00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:51,990
environment like this and they're

506
00:24:56,030 --> 00:24:54,570
completely acclimatized to a if that's

507
00:24:57,919 --> 00:24:56,040
the right word to people because there's

508
00:24:59,530 --> 00:24:57,929
lots of people here just chatting and

509
00:25:03,020 --> 00:24:59,540
looking at them like we are and they

510
00:25:05,060 --> 00:25:03,030
give a damn it you know zoo animals vary

511
00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:05,070
hugely in that regard

512
00:25:11,870 --> 00:25:08,850
I suspect animals like lemurs are find

513
00:25:13,490 --> 00:25:11,880
us very entertaining yes let's go out

514
00:25:17,470 --> 00:25:13,500
and watch the people yes

515
00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:17,480
whereas great apes well specifically

516
00:25:24,170 --> 00:25:21,330
gorillas less so chimpanzees but

517
00:25:26,690 --> 00:25:24,180
certainly gorillas tend to be rather shy

518
00:25:28,970 --> 00:25:26,700
and in temperament and they they really

519
00:25:31,010 --> 00:25:28,980
don't like being stared at if you go to

520
00:25:33,350 --> 00:25:31,020
a gorilla cage quite often what you'll

521
00:25:35,780 --> 00:25:33,360
see is the back of a girl yeah

522
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:35,790
regularly gorillas will either be

523
00:25:39,710 --> 00:25:37,410
sitting where they can't be seen or

524
00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:39,720
can't be seen as well where they'll just

525
00:25:44,090 --> 00:25:41,970
sit with their back to the audience to

526
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:44,100
the to the viewing public now these are

527
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:45,690
the guys here these are winged tails

528
00:25:50,360 --> 00:25:48,210
they seem to be perfectly content to be

529
00:25:52,070 --> 00:25:50,370
amused by us I think so and they're just

530
00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:52,080
going about their daily activities

531
00:25:58,010 --> 00:25:54,450
having a bit of food they're sitting in

532
00:26:01,460 --> 00:25:58,020
the shade and when you leave is one of

533
00:26:03,290 --> 00:26:01,470
the things that zoos do and looking

534
00:26:05,450 --> 00:26:03,300
around this cage I think that's there

535
00:26:09,610 --> 00:26:05,460
maybe using that and this enclosure as

536
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:09,620
well is they they hide food around the

537
00:26:14,450 --> 00:26:12,810
the enclosure to make it a little bit

538
00:26:17,180 --> 00:26:14,460
more of a challenge rather than just you

539
00:26:20,120 --> 00:26:17,190
know here's your here's your Purina

540
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:20,130
lemur chow and this bucket over here

541
00:26:25,490 --> 00:26:23,250
near their gate they will hide the

542
00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:25,500
various foodstuffs in the case these

543
00:26:31,019 --> 00:26:28,570
guys eat fruits and vegetables mostly

544
00:26:33,690 --> 00:26:31,029
that full of and probably someone

545
00:26:36,210 --> 00:26:33,700
get out to hit the protein and all that

546
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:36,220
but they'll they'll secrete the pieces

547
00:26:41,789 --> 00:26:40,090
around the the cage cage a closure

548
00:26:44,610 --> 00:26:41,799
enclosure yeah that's the best term I

549
00:26:46,860 --> 00:26:44,620
think yes it's spacious it really is it

550
00:26:49,049 --> 00:26:46,870
so they'll secrete the food around the

551
00:26:50,909 --> 00:26:49,059
enclosures and then the animals have to

552
00:26:52,730 --> 00:26:50,919
kind of use their intelligence and use

553
00:26:59,519 --> 00:26:52,740
their senses their sense of smell and

554
00:27:01,529 --> 00:26:59,529
color vision to find the stuff and

555
00:27:04,310 --> 00:27:01,539
that's good for them that you know keeps

556
00:27:07,310 --> 00:27:04,320
them keeps their little brains as usual

557
00:27:09,659 --> 00:27:07,320
that one over there sitting there look

558
00:27:29,009 --> 00:27:09,669
it's looking right at us and what are

559
00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:29,019
they doing primates watching other

560
00:27:33,419 --> 00:27:31,330
primates we are privately whoa did you

561
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:33,429
see they're very good at jumping and

562
00:27:36,899 --> 00:27:33,970
lipped

563
00:27:38,580 --> 00:27:36,909
a huge deal at the baboon enclosure they

564
00:27:40,470 --> 00:27:38,590
are clearly but this is specifically

565
00:27:43,049 --> 00:27:40,480
that hamadryas baboons enclosure which

566
00:27:45,629 --> 00:27:43,059
is significant because all baboons are

567
00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:45,639
not alike hamid reyes are particularly

568
00:27:51,659 --> 00:27:49,450
interesting as baboons because they have

569
00:27:54,899 --> 00:27:51,669
a social system that's a bit different

570
00:27:57,960 --> 00:27:54,909
from your typical olive baboon or other

571
00:28:00,149 --> 00:27:57,970
all baboons are ground living monkeys

572
00:28:01,799 --> 00:28:00,159
and they spend most of their time on the

573
00:28:03,419 --> 00:28:01,809
ground they can climb trees they

574
00:28:05,129 --> 00:28:03,429
generally sleep in treaties it's not

575
00:28:07,590 --> 00:28:05,139
that they can't go into trees but their

576
00:28:10,430 --> 00:28:07,600
major adaptation is living on the ground

577
00:28:13,100 --> 00:28:10,440
exploding from ground resources like

578
00:28:16,220 --> 00:28:13,110
rhizomes and

579
00:28:21,620 --> 00:28:16,230
grass roots and stems and things like

580
00:28:23,210 --> 00:28:21,630
that but hamid reyes are particularly

581
00:28:28,750 --> 00:28:23,220
interesting among the bad ones because

582
00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:28,760
their social system is different from

583
00:28:35,150 --> 00:28:33,090
most other baboon species you have a big

584
00:28:36,770 --> 00:28:35,160
group of males and females and you have

585
00:28:38,750 --> 00:28:36,780
a male dominance hierarchy and a female

586
00:28:40,910 --> 00:28:38,760
dominance hierarchy they all kind of

587
00:28:43,970 --> 00:28:40,920
live together Hamid rights are different

588
00:28:46,610 --> 00:28:43,980
because they have a single male who has

589
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:46,620
a group of females living with him and

590
00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:47,730
then of course the children of the

591
00:28:53,090 --> 00:28:50,970
females and this kind of what's been

592
00:28:54,350 --> 00:28:53,100
referred to as a harem relationship

593
00:28:56,180 --> 00:28:54,360
that's what we can see at the moment

594
00:28:58,670 --> 00:28:56,190
there's the big male there on the this

595
00:29:01,720 --> 00:28:58,680
log of over there and there are so many

596
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:01,730
little ones lots and lots of children

597
00:29:06,020 --> 00:29:04,650
little little young oh there they go

598
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:06,030
they're all running across the face of

599
00:29:11,060 --> 00:29:08,970
that to be the waterfall over there yeah

600
00:29:12,830 --> 00:29:11,070
there's a I don't know much about this

601
00:29:15,110 --> 00:29:12,840
particular colony but obviously they

602
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:15,120
have monkeys of several different ages

603
00:29:19,250 --> 00:29:17,610
in here they clearly are doing okay on

604
00:29:21,380 --> 00:29:19,260
the you know getting them to reproduce

605
00:29:23,390 --> 00:29:21,390
by the way take a look at that big male

606
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:23,400
the see how he's got this gorgeous big

607
00:29:29,270 --> 00:29:26,250
coat crosses head and shoulders and

608
00:29:31,820 --> 00:29:29,280
notice how well-groomed that coat is

609
00:29:34,850 --> 00:29:31,830
that that there's no tangles yes and

610
00:29:38,090 --> 00:29:34,860
that it doesn't care at all it's really

611
00:29:39,500 --> 00:29:38,100
very smooth the male gets a lot of

612
00:29:41,210 --> 00:29:39,510
grooming

613
00:29:43,910 --> 00:29:41,220
and it looks like it's just being

614
00:29:47,980 --> 00:29:43,920
brushed exactly he's easy really quite

615
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:47,990
well taken care of shall we say but the

616
00:29:54,110 --> 00:29:51,210
so a male will take over in the wild not

617
00:29:57,290 --> 00:29:54,120
obviously in the zoo a male will take

618
00:30:00,350 --> 00:29:57,300
over a group of females and he will sire

619
00:30:02,750 --> 00:30:00,360
children of those females for the next

620
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:02,760
several years until he gets too old or

621
00:30:06,530 --> 00:30:04,770
until another male comes along to kind

622
00:30:08,630 --> 00:30:06,540
of drive him off and replace him and

623
00:30:11,150 --> 00:30:08,640
then that male will take over the

624
00:30:14,750 --> 00:30:11,160
females remain constant so to speak the

625
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:14,760
females in their offspring will will be

626
00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:16,410
the core of the troop so they're really

627
00:30:21,470 --> 00:30:18,810
the ones who you know that that's the

628
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:21,480
continuity in the end the social

629
00:30:29,930 --> 00:30:25,650
grouping the male children of the of the

630
00:30:31,490 --> 00:30:29,940
group will spin off when they become you

631
00:30:36,260 --> 00:30:31,500
know teenagers the equivalent of

632
00:30:38,990 --> 00:30:36,270
teenagers for four baboons a few years

633
00:30:41,540 --> 00:30:39,000
old because they would be directly in

634
00:30:44,570 --> 00:30:41,550
competition with the single male yeah I

635
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:44,580
head of the group so the the male

636
00:30:48,770 --> 00:30:46,530
spin-off but the females and their

637
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:48,780
children remain and they are the core of

638
00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:50,970
the truth they look like they're having

639
00:30:54,650 --> 00:30:53,130
a great deal of I'm gonna just walk to

640
00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:54,660
the other end of this little walkway

641
00:30:58,310 --> 00:30:56,970
here Genie because we're standing in the

642
00:30:59,750 --> 00:30:58,320
direct sunlight at the moment so he

643
00:31:02,120 --> 00:30:59,760
might get a better view from over here

644
00:31:04,430 --> 00:31:02,130
they're having a great time I mean if I

645
00:31:05,630 --> 00:31:04,440
can understand their behavior they seem

646
00:31:09,650 --> 00:31:05,640
quite happy they're running around

647
00:31:13,100 --> 00:31:09,660
jumping on things and climbing up a sort

648
00:31:15,410 --> 00:31:13,110
of a cliff wall here and generally just

649
00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:15,420
hanging out well one thing that you'll

650
00:31:20,340 --> 00:31:17,850
find true of baby primates as they love

651
00:31:22,350 --> 00:31:20,350
to play they certainly do and

652
00:31:24,509 --> 00:31:22,360
there's something quite cute about any

653
00:31:26,909 --> 00:31:24,519
baby mammal I think yeah it's really

654
00:31:29,909 --> 00:31:26,919
true you noticed by the door over there

655
00:31:31,470 --> 00:31:29,919
there's a couple of youngsters kind of

656
00:31:34,279 --> 00:31:31,480
wrestling and pushing each other and

657
00:31:37,799 --> 00:31:34,289
you're climbing up the fake rocks and

658
00:31:40,529 --> 00:31:37,809
having a good time it's it's all you

659
00:31:43,049 --> 00:31:40,539
know any mammalian play is a great way

660
00:31:44,850 --> 00:31:43,059
to develop the skills for being an adult

661
00:31:46,860 --> 00:31:44,860
whatever that species is there's a

662
00:31:48,389 --> 00:31:46,870
little fella going up there but you put

663
00:31:50,430 --> 00:31:48,399
a bunch of kids in there and they do be

664
00:31:53,999 --> 00:31:50,440
doing the same thing we don't call

665
00:31:56,100 --> 00:31:54,009
monkey bars for nothing there goes there

666
00:31:59,490 --> 00:31:56,110
goes some chasing behavior yeah that

667
00:32:01,680 --> 00:31:59,500
looks like that looks like a young male

668
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:01,690
he's they believe they may have to

669
00:32:08,039 --> 00:32:06,250
remove him from the the troop at some

670
00:32:10,499 --> 00:32:08,049
point in the future but then zoos have

671
00:32:13,259 --> 00:32:10,509
those kinds of exchanges they'll you

672
00:32:16,499 --> 00:32:13,269
know they'll swap animals around as they

673
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:16,509
need to do to retain the appropriate

674
00:32:29,899 --> 00:32:18,970
social grouping yeah that definitely

675
00:32:34,710 --> 00:32:29,909
looks like a young male and that's where

676
00:32:37,230 --> 00:32:34,720
sadly the recorder stopped recording and

677
00:32:38,970 --> 00:32:37,240
unbeknownst to me and Geney we went

678
00:32:41,490 --> 00:32:38,980
around and looked at some more animals

679
00:32:42,899 --> 00:32:41,500
especially the great apes and Geney was

680
00:32:44,580 --> 00:32:42,909
telling me all about the muscle

681
00:32:46,860 --> 00:32:44,590
structure and the arm structure in

682
00:32:49,529 --> 00:32:46,870
various points about evolution and where

683
00:32:52,289 --> 00:32:49,539
they diverged it was fascinating stuff

684
00:32:56,580 --> 00:32:52,299
but sadly when I checked the recordings

685
00:32:59,669 --> 00:32:56,590
later on those recordings failed however

686
00:33:03,180 --> 00:32:59,679
and I hope you can appreciate how lucky

687
00:33:05,610 --> 00:33:03,190
I was to have a well if not exactly a

688
00:33:08,999 --> 00:33:05,620
guided tour around Auckland Zoo at a

689
00:33:12,029 --> 00:33:09,009
trip around the zoo we have somebody who

690
00:33:13,610 --> 00:33:12,039
is such an expert in her field as dr.

691
00:33:15,570 --> 00:33:13,620
eugenie Scott

692
00:33:18,039 --> 00:33:15,580
[Music]

693
00:33:20,499 --> 00:33:18,049
if you ever get the chance to visit a

694
00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:20,509
zoo with dr. eugenie Scott I sincerely

695
00:33:24,730 --> 00:33:22,610
recommend you take it up Thank You

696
00:33:43,210 --> 00:33:24,740
Jeanne thank you very much for a

697
00:33:45,789 --> 00:33:43,220
wonderful day at Oakland Zoo hi I'm

698
00:33:47,590 --> 00:33:45,799
Yvette Don Troma aka SCI babe and I

699
00:33:50,769 --> 00:33:47,600
debunk bad science for a living this

700
00:33:52,299 --> 00:33:50,779
includes health nutrition and general BS

701
00:33:54,070 --> 00:33:52,309
on the Internet and I'm looking forward

702
00:34:12,639 --> 00:33:54,080
to seeing you all at skeptic on on

703
00:34:15,099 --> 00:34:12,649
Australia this October now is a story

704
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:15,109
brought to my attention by dr. Ken

705
00:34:23,399 --> 00:34:18,770
Harvey a longtime campaigner for science

706
00:34:25,869 --> 00:34:23,409
and reason especially in medicine and

707
00:34:28,210 --> 00:34:25,879
especially when it comes to the claims

708
00:34:32,710 --> 00:34:28,220
of medical so-called medical products

709
00:34:35,379 --> 00:34:32,720
this is reported at med rich calm that a

710
00:34:38,889 --> 00:34:35,389
you links in this week's show notes made

711
00:34:41,409 --> 00:34:38,899
reach proprietary limited a story by dr.

712
00:34:43,419 --> 00:34:41,419
Ken Harvey therapeutics goods

713
00:34:47,349 --> 00:34:43,429
administration's new complaint system

714
00:34:49,050 --> 00:34:47,359
fails at either cold test outcome of

715
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:49,060
advertising complaints investigations

716
00:34:55,620 --> 00:34:53,450
specification 2018 enacted and this was

717
00:34:57,490 --> 00:34:55,630
posted on the 5th of July

718
00:34:59,960 --> 00:34:57,500
[Music]

719
00:35:03,350 --> 00:34:59,970
stimulated by an article in today's of

720
00:35:05,030 --> 00:35:03,360
the conversation website also links in

721
00:35:08,420 --> 00:35:05,040
the show notes on farmer care

722
00:35:11,900 --> 00:35:08,430
laboratories either cold I have decided

723
00:35:14,090 --> 00:35:11,910
to try the TJ's new complaint system the

724
00:35:17,780 --> 00:35:14,100
photograph accompanying has a picture of

725
00:35:20,530 --> 00:35:17,790
easy cold the packaging either cold

726
00:35:23,270 --> 00:35:20,540
cough cold and flu day and night

727
00:35:27,410 --> 00:35:23,280
specifically formulated to help shorten

728
00:35:29,870 --> 00:35:27,420
a cold are the claims as I mentioned in

729
00:35:31,940 --> 00:35:29,880
a comment on this article this product

730
00:35:34,910 --> 00:35:31,950
has been the subject of a previous

731
00:35:38,690 --> 00:35:34,920
article in the conversation in 2015 it

732
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:38,700
has also had six upheld complaints by

733
00:35:43,810 --> 00:35:41,090
the now abolished therapeutics goods

734
00:35:48,170 --> 00:35:43,820
advertising complaints resolution panel

735
00:35:50,150 --> 00:35:48,180
CRP from 2005 to 2016 and a

736
00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:50,160
recommendation to the secretary of the

737
00:35:56,060 --> 00:35:53,610
CRP in 2017 for failure to withdraw

738
00:35:58,190 --> 00:35:56,070
misleading representations that the

739
00:36:01,010 --> 00:35:58,200
product had quote been clinically

740
00:36:03,050 --> 00:36:01,020
trialed in the sense of being

741
00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:03,060
demonstrated to have effects such as

742
00:36:08,300 --> 00:36:05,370
reducing the duration impact on daily

743
00:36:11,330 --> 00:36:08,310
life or severity of symptoms of the cold

744
00:36:13,340 --> 00:36:11,340
in quote typically I could find no

745
00:36:16,370 --> 00:36:13,350
outcome of this recommendation to the

746
00:36:18,290 --> 00:36:16,380
secretary TGA on the TGA website in

747
00:36:20,710 --> 00:36:18,300
addition there was a decision to

748
00:36:24,410 --> 00:36:20,720
withdraw advertising approval in

749
00:36:27,430 --> 00:36:24,420
specified media only not the internet by

750
00:36:30,860 --> 00:36:27,440
the TGA on the 11th of October 2017

751
00:36:33,500 --> 00:36:30,870
regardless this product continues to be

752
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:33,510
advertised with claims that have been

753
00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:36,210
repeatedly judged to be misleading and

754
00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:38,970
deceptive furthermore Pharma cares

755
00:36:43,820 --> 00:36:41,090
Laboratories has the unenviable

756
00:36:45,890 --> 00:36:43,830
reputation of having the most upheld

757
00:36:48,110 --> 00:36:45,900
complaints by any sponsor of

758
00:36:51,740 --> 00:36:48,120
complementary medicines over the 10-year

759
00:36:54,740 --> 00:36:51,750
life of this CRP however upon submission

760
00:36:57,890 --> 00:36:54,750
of the attached complaint I received the

761
00:37:01,040 --> 00:36:57,900
following error message and the message

762
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:01,050
reads in red we're sorry but something

763
00:37:09,220 --> 00:37:05,970
went wrong era I D Ashby 9 - 2 e e FD -

764
00:37:12,270 --> 00:37:09,230
3 a a 1 - 4 AF 2

765
00:37:15,220 --> 00:37:12,280
I think 9c I think you get the message

766
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:15,230
we've been notified about this issue and

767
00:37:19,300 --> 00:37:16,970
we'll take a look shortly thank you for

768
00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:19,310
your patience this is the same error I

769
00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:21,650
reported to the TGA when I tested their

770
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:24,050
system on the 17th of May

771
00:37:28,660 --> 00:37:26,690
it's a pity it remained when the system

772
00:37:31,180 --> 00:37:28,670
went live I submitted that this

773
00:37:33,790 --> 00:37:31,190
complaint should have been addressed as

774
00:37:36,490 --> 00:37:33,800
quote high priority and quote because

775
00:37:38,290 --> 00:37:36,500
the sponsor is recalcitrant the product

776
00:37:40,420 --> 00:37:38,300
has a number of uphill complaints and

777
00:37:42,820 --> 00:37:40,430
the varied advertising claims by the

778
00:37:44,950 --> 00:37:42,830
sponsor and many others continue to

779
00:37:47,470 --> 00:37:44,960
state or imply that the product will

780
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:47,480
shorten the duration and severity of a

781
00:37:53,950 --> 00:37:51,410
cold when it will not by allege repeated

782
00:37:58,500 --> 00:37:53,960
breaches of the therapeutics Goods

783
00:38:03,460 --> 00:37:58,510
advertising code 2017 sections for 1b

784
00:38:07,780 --> 00:38:03,470
for 2a and 4 to see in addition specific

785
00:38:09,910 --> 00:38:07,790
indications on the AR TG public summary

786
00:38:12,310 --> 00:38:09,920
documents are equally misleading and

787
00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:12,320
deceptive I asked for an immediate

788
00:38:18,540 --> 00:38:15,890
response from the TGA to me as to the

789
00:38:20,830 --> 00:38:18,550
priority allocated to this complaint and

790
00:38:24,580 --> 00:38:20,840
subsequently the measures taken by the

791
00:38:27,970 --> 00:38:24,590
TGA to achieve compliance and the

792
00:38:30,700 --> 00:38:27,980
outcome for publication I am concerned

793
00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:30,710
that the recently enacted therapeutics

794
00:38:34,650 --> 00:38:32,570
Goods information outcomes of

795
00:38:37,810 --> 00:38:34,660
advertising complaints investigations

796
00:38:40,900 --> 00:38:37,820
specification 2018 only states that

797
00:38:44,020 --> 00:38:40,910
quote the following specific kinds of

798
00:38:46,060 --> 00:38:44,030
therapeutic goods information may be

799
00:38:49,570 --> 00:38:46,070
released by the secretary to the public

800
00:38:52,690 --> 00:38:49,580
under subsection 61 5c of the Act

801
00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:52,700
end quote it remains to be seen what we

802
00:38:59,020 --> 00:38:55,490
get back from the TGA for the attached

803
00:39:00,490 --> 00:38:59,030
test complaint now the reason I'm

804
00:39:01,750 --> 00:39:00,500
bringing you this story and it's worth

805
00:39:05,580 --> 00:39:01,760
clicking on the link in the show notes

806
00:39:08,170 --> 00:39:05,590
that to have a look for yourself is to

807
00:39:12,220 --> 00:39:08,180
reiterate how important it is for people

808
00:39:15,550 --> 00:39:12,230
like dr. ken Harvey to be the what's the

809
00:39:18,940 --> 00:39:15,560
term The Barking Dog the watch dog the

810
00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:18,950
dog at the heels of government

811
00:39:23,030 --> 00:39:21,330
regulation to keep them

812
00:39:26,510 --> 00:39:23,040
honest to keep them up-to-date to keep

813
00:39:28,730 --> 00:39:26,520
them aware because sadly all too often

814
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:28,740
things like outrageous claims for

815
00:39:34,370 --> 00:39:31,290
complementary medicines just sort of

816
00:39:37,100 --> 00:39:34,380
slip under the radar go unnoticed or at

817
00:39:39,230 --> 00:39:37,110
least an act upon for many years hence

818
00:39:41,810 --> 00:39:39,240
we have products that claim to be

819
00:39:43,910 --> 00:39:41,820
all-natural etc making outrageous claims

820
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:43,920
that that simply don't stack up when put

821
00:39:49,070 --> 00:39:46,290
to the test now this may be the

822
00:39:53,170 --> 00:39:49,080
situation where you're listening to this

823
00:39:55,490 --> 00:39:53,180
show anywhere around the world companies

824
00:39:56,570 --> 00:39:55,500
well they'll get away with what they can

825
00:39:59,900 --> 00:39:56,580
get away with and if they can make

826
00:40:02,060 --> 00:39:59,910
products cheaply quickly especially

827
00:40:05,900 --> 00:40:02,070
homeopathic products which obviously

828
00:40:09,290 --> 00:40:05,910
have have no benefit in a medical sense

829
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:09,300
and make outrageous claims well that's

830
00:40:15,890 --> 00:40:12,810
what companies tend to do so it is vital

831
00:40:35,030 --> 00:40:15,900
that people like dr. ken Harvey keep on

832
00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:35,040
their case hi this is dr. Pamela Gaye

833
00:40:39,590 --> 00:40:37,770
from astronomy cast each week Fraser

834
00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:39,600
Cain and I take our listeners on a

835
00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:41,450
fact-based journey through the cosmos

836
00:40:47,450 --> 00:40:44,610
with our weekly podcast we explain not

837
00:40:49,250 --> 00:40:47,460
just what we know but how we know what

838
00:40:51,980 --> 00:40:49,260
we know about this universe that we

839
00:40:54,650 --> 00:40:51,990
share check us out at astronomy cast

840
00:40:56,480 --> 00:40:54,660
calm and look for us in itunes google

841
00:40:59,410 --> 00:40:56,490
play and where ever you download

842
00:41:14,900 --> 00:40:59,420
podcasts see online

843
00:41:20,100 --> 00:41:17,520
thank you for listening to the skeptic

844
00:41:23,220 --> 00:41:20,110
zone now as promised I'm gonna give you

845
00:41:26,820 --> 00:41:23,230
the chance to beat odds of eight million

846
00:41:30,150 --> 00:41:26,830
six hundred and forty thousand to one

847
00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:30,160
and as longtime listeners to the skeptic

848
00:41:34,260 --> 00:41:32,410
zone know every once in a while we play

849
00:41:41,720 --> 00:41:34,270
the dice game where I had a series of

850
00:41:46,500 --> 00:41:41,730
dice here I have a four-sided die a

851
00:41:52,530 --> 00:41:46,510
six-sided die a ten sided die a 20-sided

852
00:41:57,030 --> 00:41:52,540
die a thirty sided die and a sixty sided

853
00:42:00,690 --> 00:41:57,040
die right your chance to use your

854
00:42:03,270 --> 00:42:00,700
prediction powers or your powers of just

855
00:42:05,220 --> 00:42:03,280
dumb luck maybe I'm gonna roll each of

856
00:42:08,340 --> 00:42:05,230
these die tell you the answer and see

857
00:42:10,890 --> 00:42:08,350
how many you can get right maybe you are

858
00:42:14,010 --> 00:42:10,900
psychic who knows all right so first is

859
00:42:20,340 --> 00:42:14,020
the four-sided die it's in the shape of

860
00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:20,350
a pyramid so here we go and it's come up

861
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:25,690
with two that's the first and so is two

862
00:42:29,310 --> 00:42:28,210
you move up to the six-sided die the

863
00:42:37,290 --> 00:42:29,320
standard die

864
00:42:46,980 --> 00:42:37,300
here we go six let's move up to the

865
00:42:53,490 --> 00:42:46,990
10-sided dice shaking this 520 sided die

866
00:42:56,250 --> 00:42:53,500
here we go 22 those of you playing along

867
00:43:00,960 --> 00:42:56,260
at home and we move up to the 30 sided

868
00:43:04,610 --> 00:43:00,970
die it's quite chunky this one they keep

869
00:43:14,130 --> 00:43:09,240
13 lastly the the 60 sided die which is

870
00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:14,140
quite big and almost almost quite too

871
00:43:19,590 --> 00:43:16,930
smooth very little variation but good

872
00:43:22,950 --> 00:43:19,600
enough to come up with a random number

873
00:43:26,550 --> 00:43:22,960
here we go as it rolls around

874
00:43:29,250 --> 00:43:26,560
table and back again and come on keeps

875
00:43:34,140 --> 00:43:29,260
rolling off the tech guy how it's

876
00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:34,150
steadied now 57 so the numbers you want

877
00:43:44,099 --> 00:43:42,130
are two six five 2013 and 57 no

878
00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:44,109
supplementary number if you've got all

879
00:43:48,329 --> 00:43:45,130
those right

880
00:43:55,410 --> 00:43:48,339
you beat odds of eight million six

881
00:43:56,640 --> 00:43:55,420
hundred and forty thousand to one and

882
00:43:59,730 --> 00:43:56,650
maybe you should apply for the

883
00:44:02,490 --> 00:43:59,740
Australian skeptics $100,000 psychic

884
00:44:05,730 --> 00:44:02,500
challenge if you think you have a

885
00:44:09,990 --> 00:44:05,740
psychic or a paranormal power why not

886
00:44:12,349 --> 00:44:10,000
apply at www.sceeto.com not a you

887
00:44:15,300 --> 00:44:12,359
there's information there about the

888
00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:15,310
$100,000 challenge yes it's certainly

889
00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:17,650
good to be back in Sydney Australia back

890
00:44:22,260 --> 00:44:20,410
in the skeptic ozone studios and the

891
00:44:23,940 --> 00:44:22,270
skeptic zone cats are all over me which

892
00:44:26,310 --> 00:44:23,950
is really nice in fact they've just

893
00:44:28,589 --> 00:44:26,320
never the studio at the moment they're

894
00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:28,599
looking for me for food I think food and

895
00:44:33,210 --> 00:44:31,210
back scratchers thank you - Mandy Lee

896
00:44:36,720 --> 00:44:33,220
Noble for this week's report and a big

897
00:44:41,180 --> 00:44:36,730
thank you to dr. eugenie Scott for being

898
00:44:44,339 --> 00:44:41,190
such a good friend a good friend indeed

899
00:44:47,220 --> 00:44:44,349
and what a pleasure it is to go anywhere

900
00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:47,230
with dr. Scott and have her explain

901
00:44:53,820 --> 00:44:50,650
interesting facts about natural history

902
00:44:54,390 --> 00:44:53,830
and evolution coming up on next week's

903
00:44:56,160 --> 00:44:54,400
show

904
00:44:59,280 --> 00:44:56,170
undoubtedly we'll bring you highlights

905
00:45:02,060 --> 00:44:59,290
of the talk coming up here in Sydney by

906
00:45:05,099 --> 00:45:02,070
dr. Angela Matt key now on the 12th

907
00:45:06,839 --> 00:45:05,109
Thursday the 12th at the at the

908
00:45:08,910 --> 00:45:06,849
Occidental hotel just near Wynyard

909
00:45:10,849 --> 00:45:08,920
station more details on this week's show

910
00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:10,859
notes hope to see you there at Sydney

911
00:45:16,770 --> 00:45:13,930
skeptics in the pub but until next week

912
00:45:18,510 --> 00:45:16,780
and with the jetlag rapidly catching up

913
00:45:20,250 --> 00:45:18,520
on me I think it's almost time for bed

914
00:45:25,769 --> 00:45:20,260
this is Richard Saunders signing off

915
00:45:31,180 --> 00:45:28,269
you've been listening to the skeptic

916
00:45:37,870 --> 00:45:31,190
zone podcast please visit our website at

917
00:45:41,370 --> 00:45:37,880
wwlp.com tax and to access the bat

918
00:45:44,049 --> 00:45:41,380
catalog of episodes going back to 2008

919
00:45:47,319 --> 00:45:44,059
you can follow the skeptic zone podcast

920
00:45:49,599 --> 00:45:47,329
on twitter at skeptic zone visit our

921
00:45:50,489 --> 00:45:49,609
facebook page or leave a review on

922
00:45:53,170 --> 00:45:50,499
itunes

923
00:45:56,559 --> 00:45:53,180
you can also support the skeptic zone

924
00:45:59,279 --> 00:45:56,569
via patreon or paypal the skeptic zone

925
00:46:01,660 --> 00:45:59,289
podcast is an independent production

926
00:46:03,819 --> 00:46:01,670
reviews and opinions expressed on the

927
00:46:06,130 --> 00:46:03,829
skeptic zone and not necessarily those

928
00:46:07,930 --> 00:46:06,140
of Australian skeptics or any other